Hola, chicos y chicas! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 5 and 6 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time reread is also now available as an ebook series, except for the portion covering A Memory of Light, which should become available soon.
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 5: Winternight
Redux Commentary
Wow, my original commentary on this chapter was super short.
But then, there is often less to say about action scenes, even though those are often the ones that are most enjoyable. But don’t worry, I’ll remedy that lack of verbosity with extreme prejudice now!
First off, I like how this chapter is set up: the seemingly-extraneous but comfortable domesticity and routine of the first half of the chapter provides a stark contrast to when the Trollocs show up and everything goes pear-shaped, and in addition gives the reader a clear picture of just what that attack is destroying. You have to show what home is to appreciate the full devastating impact of a home invasion, and this is true whether the invaders are garden-variety thugs or supernatural abominations of nature.
I also had some rather hilarious thoughts reading the first half about how pathetically helpless I would be without modern civilization. I mean, forget a full-on wilderness/apocalypse survival situation; even if you plunked me down in a fully-stocked and functioning farm like Rand and Tam’s and said “Go,” I’d still be screwed. Eggs that don’t come in a plastic carton? Meat you have to slaughter yourself? Shearing sheep for wool? Cutting your own firewood? Yeah, no. I’ll just be over here cuddling my microwave and machine-made sweaters from Macy’s, thanks.
Slowly Tam drew the weapon; firelight played along the gleaming length. It was nothing at all like the plain, rough blades Rand had seen in the hands of merchants’ guards. No gems or gold adorned it, but it seemed grand to him, nonetheless. The blade, very slightly curved and sharp on only one edge, bore another heron etched into the steel. Short quillons, worked to look like braid, flanked the hilt. It seemed almost fragile compared with the swords of the merchants’ guards; most of those were double-edged, and thick enough to chop down a tree.
I don’t know that I noticed on earlier readings that the sword being described here is actually a katana blade as opposed to a western-style broadsword like the merchant guards’ obviously are, but of course this was much-discussed in the fandom later on. I remember that there was some contention as to why a katana would be a thing in a (so far) obviously European-based fantasy culture, but then of course Jordan’s world-building very frequently turned out to be mash-ups of various cultural trappings from often wildly divergent sources (e.g. the Cairhienin, who are mostly a cross between grand siècle France and samurai-era Japan), so in context it’s really not that strange at all.
Fun story: back when the covers of the WOT ebooks were being commissioned, the redoubtable Irene Gallo, Art Director and General Badass of Tor Books, asked me and Jason Denzel of Dragonmount to take a look at them for continuity/accuracy reasons, since we had obviously spent a lot more time head-down in WOT minutiae than sane people she had. And that foresight on Irene’s part is why the sword in Donato Giancola’s lovely cover art for the ebook of The Dragon Reborn is properly a katana instead of a European-style blade. And that, boys and girls, is why people committed to doing canon-compliant justice to their material are awesome.
“I got it a long time ago,” Tam said, “a long way from here. And I paid entirely too much; two coppers is too much for one of these. Your mother didn’t approve, but she was always wiser than I. I was young then, and it seemed worth the price at the time. She always wanted me to get rid of it, and more than once I’ve thought she was right, that I should just give it away.”
Reflected fire made the blade seem aflame. Rand started. He had often daydreamed about owning a sword. “Give it away? How could you give a sword like that away?”
Tam snorted. “Not much use in herding sheep, now is it? Can’t plow a field or harvest a crop with it.” For a long minute he stared at the sword as if wondering what he was doing with such a thing. At last he let out a heavy sigh. “But if I am not just taken by a black fancy, if our luck runs sour, maybe in the next few days we’ll be glad I tucked it in that old chest, instead.”
Nice Biblical reference here, specifically to the Book of Isaiah:
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Emphasis mine, of course.) This is, naturally, a very large theme running throughout WOT: the contrast between the peaceful utopia of the Age of Legends, where no one even knew how to use a sword before all hell broke (literally) loose, and the Third Age, plagued by constant spates of often decades-long warfare. We’ll see the reference again in TGS, except in reverse, when farmers take their farm tools and repurpose them into weapons in preparation for the Last Battle.
I think I’ve talked about this before, but whatever: As Tam points out, swords are unique weapons in that, unlike daggers or axes or hammers or longbows or even spears, they are completely useless as anything but weapons. You can’t harvest a crop or chop wood or even use them to hunt game – or at least you would be stupid to do so when so many better alternatives are available. The only thing swords are good for, really, is to kill people. So their presence or absence (in a pre-gunpowder weapons world, anyway) is extremely significant for that reason. Tam taking out his sword, when it had so long been hidden away, useless and unneeded, is an unmistakable signal that the peace of the Two Rivers was about to be irrevocably over.
Rand shivered. He did not think he would want to meet anyone a Trolloc was afraid of.
Hahahaha yeah.
Last but not least, I still find it bemusing that, as I pointed out in the original commentary, this is the only time (as far as I recall) in the entire series where a Trolloc has actual lines of dialogue. I suppose that, being the fantasy equivalent of stormtroopers (faceless, interchangeable, unquestionably evil minions who can be conveniently slaughtered en masse without compunction or remorse), they don’t really need lines, but still.
Chapter 6: The Westwood
Redux Commentary
Wavering shadows to the east slowly resolved themselves into a horse and rider followed up the road by tall, bulky shapes trotting to keep up with the animal. The pale light of the moon glittered from spearheads and axe blades. Rand never even considered that they might be villagers coming to help. He knew what they were. He could feel it, like grit scraping his bones, even before they drew close enough for moonlight to reveal the hooded cloak swathing the horseman, a cloak that hung undisturbed by the wind.
Besides this scene being (as I noted in the original commentary) a very direct reference/homage to the scene in The Fellowship of the Ring where frightened hobbits evade the notice of a scary hooded supernatural entity on the road, this is also a subtle nod to Moiraine’s later assertion that channelers can sense the presence of Shadowspawn, though of course Rand doesn’t recognize it as such at the time.
I also noted the Campbellian elements here of the Hero’s Journey, specifically the Call to Adventure: something has broken up the idyllic tranquility of the hero’s normal boring ordinary world, and now he is faced with the necessity of rising up to deal with the crap that is thus stirred. (Though, uh, Campbell would probably not have phrased it exactly that way. What, shut up, I do what I want!)
Actually, all of TEOTW can be broken down in terms of the Hero’s Journey. I think the entire series can be as well, more or less, but I am less certain of that. Something to keep in mind as we progress, for certain.
At any rate, I have to reiterate here my memory of how much this chapter excited me on first reading. Some things may be clichéd, may be tropetastic, may be even predictable in this kind of story, and yet I don’t care, because sometimes the comforting thrill of that trope is exactly what you are looking for. There are no new stories, they say, only endless variations on various repeated themes, but there’s a reason why we still love stories that do those non-new stories in new and interesting ways, and that is certainly one of the many aspects of WOT that hooked me like a fish on first reading.
So this revelation that Rand’s origins are More Mysterious Than Previously Supposed is something we all maybe totally saw coming, especially the genre savvy among us, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was enthralling and engaging to read about, because look, y’all, this is what it’s all about. If you’re not here for the coolness of Our Hero learning he is More Than What He Seems, then I’m not sure what you’re doing reading fantasy in the first place.
Maybe all the stories were as real as the news the peddlers and merchants brought, all the gleeman’s tales and all the stories told at night in front of the fireplace. Next he might actually meet the Green Man, or an Ogier giant, or a wild, black-veiled Aielman.
Not exactly in that order, but yeah, pretty much, Rand.
And that’s what I got for this one, kids! Have a week, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
I love these kinds of stories, the heroes journey, great stuff. Love the more than the gray character stories that are all the rage.
I didn’t like how close Jordan hewed to Tolkien’s story at first or later, but damned if these two chapters aren’t incredibly executed.
The sword stuff ties in the Aiel background too. Jordan obviously had the Aiel playing a central role even by the time he wrote EOTW. Makes you wonder if he had their entire backstory already.
aww. remember when we were scared of trollocs… how cute.
I had forgotten how badass the reveal of Tam’s sword was… very cool
In The Westwood we get another taste of Tam knowing things that most Randlanders either do not, or appear to misunderstand. In his ramblings he discusses the real cause of the Aiel War, and some of the history leading to it. Much of this we do not really understand until TSR, but it is laid out here. This ties in with the new prolouge, where Tam knows more about the Breaking than most.
On Trollocs.. no they don’t really need dialogue, but later in the series we get some hints if I remember about Trollocs tribe/differences and them writing on walls etc right? It felt to me like eventually we’d get a little more insight that never ended up coming.
I’d be interested to read RJs notes on them but as part of the overall story it probably wasn’t really needed.
Funny enough, I did a paper for my College Lit 101 class bumping WOT (then only through Lord of Chaos) up against Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. As I recall, I got an A. :-)
Ah, Tam. I would so love a book about his backstory. Alas.
So nice to revisit this beginning. I love the parallels with Tolkein and the Bible, and Campbell. RJ certainly brought a myriad philosophies together in this series. This is very traditional Fantasy, and very well done.
The first time I read WoT, I’ve actually never heard of the heroes journey. It was reading these chapters – comparing them with LOTR and other similar stories – that made me think about how are these stories basically the same story over and over and nearly invent something very heroes-journey-ish myself: then I read Campbell. Those were good times.
I also remember how it all seemed more real than LOTR. The chapter Westwood seemed so long to me – when rereading it, I’m always surprised it is not longer than any other chapter, because I’d swear it felt almost fifty pages long the first time.
I like the fact the trollocs talk – it makes them terrifying. It’s too bad they don’t get a single line later.
In regards to any contention regarding a katana in a European setting, is it possible that the mark of the heron and heron blades originated within the culture of the obviously eastern based Seanchan?
I don’t recall if the origin of the heron status blademaster is ever discussed.
@10, Be’lal wields a heron-marked sword of Power in book 3, and the Seanchan Rand duels in book 2 carries a heron-marked sword. Also, Rand’s power-made sword is heron-marked so the heron-mark has a very old history in-universe.
RJ said a little more about blademasters, etc. in response to question, etc., but IIRC he never got into the origin.
Actually, Leigh, the blade that the primary WOT blademaster sword most resembles is a western sword, the Grosse messer (big knife)
http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?53067-Gro%DFes-Messer-(Mittelalter)
Like the weapon of the blademaster, and unlike the katana, the Grossemesser has quillons.
I have a slightly different perspective on WoT and Campbell. (Admittedly this may have something to do with the fact that I don’t believe that the Hero’s Journey is actually a legitimate scholarly construct that can be found in its entirety in any known myth. Campbell saw what he wanted to see, created a story and had some great rhetoric, and eventually gave us the first flawless Hero’s Journey hero: Luke Skywalker). However, my take is that Rand conforms very nicely to the Hero pattern. . .right until the end of The Dragon Reborn. Which, if anyone remembers that far back, when it was first published might have seemed to casual readers like the, uh, END? So, Rand gets his call to adventure, is distracted, goes through his dark night of the soul, accepts his special destiny as the Dragon, etc. . .and then all of a sudden the Big Bad he killed was just a foil, and the book descends into an ugly and decidedly unheroic mess of politics with the entrance of a minor monarch determined to sleep with Rand for reasons that have nothing to do with fantasy tropes and everything to do with alternate history. It’s a pretty impressive fake-out to the audience, and a warning that this isn’t actually going to just be fantasy-epic-as-usual.
I think that the price Tam referenced in this chapter is not monetary. I wonder if RJ left any notes about how Tam acquired his blade. If it is not monetary, I would like to know the specifics behind how he got the blade. Also, I would like to learn how he met Rand’s mother (IIRC her name is Kari). Do we know what nation/city Rand’s mom was from?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
@14 AndrewHB- Yes, her name was Kari, and she was from Caemlyn, so she’s Andorran, and isn’t technically a foreigner, though most people in the Two Rivers have no idea they’re part of Andor.
As for Tam’s blade, he got it when he fought for Illian, where he became the second Captain of the Illianer Companions and became a blademaster (killing an unknown blademaster for unclear reasons).
Trollocs Trollocs Trollocs! *bounces happily*
I became seriously obsessed with Shadowspawn while reading TEotW and TGH, rambled annoyingly about them on dragonmount.com for years, and retain a Brown-Ajah-style fascination with them.
So I wanted more Trolloc dialogue. And names. And non-battle scenes. Ah, that’s what fanfic is for…
Fun fact: Narg is one of only two Trollocs described as having features of multiple non-human species. He has a wolf muzzle and goat hooves, and some soldier in ToM “could have sworn he’d seen one twisted abomination with goat horns and eagle feathers.”
AndrewHB @14 & MDNY @15
Yep, Kari was from Caemlyn or thereabouts in Andor. Furthermore, she had red hair like most Andorians, and pale eyes to boot, so Rand’s parentage was not scrutinized closely before now.
Tam’s blade, no idea really. The popular theory is that he got it while serving as a Companion of Illian. It fits since a huge chunk of his time outside the Two Rivers was spent in military service. But as to exactly where…
Alternately, he got it before he joined the Companions, and the death of its previous owner was the reason he was forced to sign up. But that goes into crazy theory land. :P
Notably however, his blade was not only Power-wrought, but also marked with herons. A kind of double whammy of rarity as Lan would eventually elaborate. Blades of this type were relics of the Age of Legends and the War of the Power that ended it. While not particularly spelled out I’m almost certain whoever Tam killed to get it was a nobleman.
Jonellin Stonebreaker @12
Good call! I contend though, that the presence of quillions is not that much of a dealbreaker. We must remember that Jordan loved mish-mashing several traditions. And as an avid sword collector himself, he probably had a clear idea of what he wanted the blade master’s preferred blade to be. Quillions may not be a typical feature of a katana, but if a westerner(or a Randlander with no concern for either westerner or Japanese tradition) were to make one, he’d probably try to fit quillions to it.
Jonellin Stonebreaker @@@@@ 12:
Sorry, but I don’t buy that. The sword pictured at that link isn’t… elegant enough to be a heron mark blade, in my opinion. Plus, I feel like I’ve heard it confirmed somewhere that Jordan said the swordmaster’s blade was meant to be a katana. It’s true that traditional katanas don’t have quillons, but I attribute that, again, to Jordan’s penchant for doing East-West mashups.
Bayoubilly @10
Nope, it is never discussed outright, but we can put together some clues. Notably, both good and evil blademasters used it. Bel’al in particular, dueled Rand with a sword made of the One Power… marked with a Heron.
It don’t get much older than that. Bel’al boasts of having rediscovered swordsmanship along with Lews Therin himself.
Sometime in the next few chapters Lan also gives a little background info. Lan’s sword, the Sword of the Malkieri Kings is also Power-wrought, but unmarked. In appearance it is in fact identical to Rand’s just without the heron mark. He goes on to say that his sword was the sword of a common soldier before passing to his ancestors, while Rand’s belonged to someone of high rank.
From these two we can trace the heron mark to either the exclusive brotherhood that Lews Therin and Bel’al were part of when they reinvented swordsmanship, or alternatively the officer class during the War of Power.
leighdb @18
Plus, I feel like I’ve heard it confirmed somewhere that Jordan said the swordmaster’s blade was meant to be a katana.
Question 14 at this link confirms that Rand and Lan’s swords were based on the katana: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=194
RJ said that Tam’s sword was given him by the king of Illian; in TGS there’s the following:
Presumably he killed the guy, perhaps at the king’s behest, and was given the sword whether he wanted it or not. Kari didn’t approve… but whether it was his service to the king of Illian, his willingness to kill the man, or what, we don’t know.
I would also be completely lost without modern technology. I find it
interesting how easily the Forsaken find it, but then again having mind
control and teleportation probably helps.
Um… forgive me for saying this, but how did you check the continuity on The Dragon Reborn’s cover art enough to be able to describe the sword as a katana… without actually remembering that Rand didn’t have a sword of any kind in the Dragon Reborn? After Tam’s sword was destroyed in The Great Hunt, he didn’t get a sword again until Aviendha gave him Laman’s sword in Fires of Heaven… during The Dragon Reborn he just used a sword made of red flame wrought from the power. That’s always bugged me about that e-book cover.
@22 GregP: The thing that’s always stuck in my mind is how in the world the Foresaken communicated with anybody.
They fell asleep at the end of the Age of Legends, and, as Lanfear said, it was a dreamless sleep, so they weren’t learning new things during it (Ishamael excepted). So how is it that all of them woke from their slumber able to speak this new modern language that’s so very different from the Old Tongue? Are they all linguistic genuises who could pick up all the nuances of a new language in a month or so?
The chores: When I first read chapter 5, I remember thinking how ridiculous it was to go through every single chore Rand had to do. But then when all hell breaks loose, I realized it was there to make him that much more tired and hungry. RJ also goes into detail about how he hadn’t eaten anything but a few honeycakes that day.
The tropes: I thought the LOTR callbacks were fun, since the story was different enough, but I definitely rolled my eyes at some other familiar tropes at the beginning of EOTW: the red hair, the orphan, waking up with magical powers at/near puberty, the real parents being royalty, inheritor to a legendary power/knowledge/treasure (in this case, LT’s memories). I’m still put off by a lot of that, but the story that RJ crafted overcomes any annoyance I had/have.
The sword: There are a lot of Asian references in the AOL, like the yin/yang symbol and the dragon, which seems to be depicted as Asian in design if I remember right, and I often don’t. The katana fits for me.
This was the first fantasy I ever read (excepting, I suppose, the first two or three Dark Tower books which had come out before I started reading Wheel of Time), and so I didn’t pick up on any of these Lord of the Rings callbacks everybody’s talking about. I still haven’t read the Lord of the Rings, actually; seems redundant after all of those movies, and I couldn’t stand The Hobbit when I read that in college.
Annnd…I don’t have anything especially relevant to say.
But was it an oblique reference to Trolloc poop when Rand decided not to retrieve the medical herbs from his house? I don’t recall RJ touching on that subject very deeply, if at all.
@24: maybe there was a Rosetta Stone weave RJ Just decided to never get into :p
Been rereading the series again. Well, actually, I’m re-listneing to the audiobook. So many of the things they say become so cute in hindsight. Getting scared of Trollocs… so cute. And Rand not wanting to meet something a Trolloc is scared of, when all he felt whenever he saw Padan Fain/Mordeth/whatever-his-name-is-now is murderous fury.
It should make a person realize how fortunate they are to alive at this time, rather than even a 150 some years ago. It was not really that long ago that the kind of existance that Tam and Rand lead was the norm, and had been more or less since humans first took up agriculture. My grandmother told stories about how she was tasked with dispatching her family’s chicken dinner, and having firsthand knowledge of how literal the saying “running around like a chicken with its head cut off” is.
We laugh at Rand’s fear of Trollocs because he (and many others) will become able to magically mow them down en masse. But any of us would be terrified (and then dead) if we encountered them while not armed with powerful modern weapons. Even I concede that.
Crusader @30 – 150 years?? I’ll have you know that I split wood for the fire as soon as I was big enough to be trusted with the axe, and as for the hours I spent hoeing the garden…
And I’m NOT 150 years old. :P
Why do they have locks if nobody locks the door?
Why does Bela have a name but the cow doesn’t?
Yeah, rural life ca. 1900 was back-breakingly hard. Let alone rural life ca. 1700.
I’ll have none of that, thank you very much. I heart my modern western civilization with its supermarkets and transportation and central heating and health care and interwebs…
@@@@@ Leigh and others regarding the blade design.
The weapon is based on the Katana, it’s also not a Katana. Quillions aside, given Jordan’s knowledge of blades and interest in them, something in Rand’s description points out quite plainly that this Sword is something different from the Katana.
To be specific: “It seemed almost fragile compared with the swords of the merchants’ guards; most of those were double-edged, and thick enough to chop down a tree.”
Katana are actually among the thicker blades. The process used to make them results in a very thick blade with a bevel like edge. Designed for draw and push cutting and near useless for casual swing and direct impact cuts. Compare that to most European blades where the weapon was meant to cut on strike from a straight swing and you’ll find the blades are a good deal thinner than Katana. It’s basic physics, the wider the object is the harder time it has penetrating straight on due to having to push matter to either side as it goes.
I’ve handled both real Katana and Jordan’s approved replica. The only thing they have in common is the general shape. The Heron is thinner, lighter and despite its two handed hilt handles close to a sabre than it does any other blade (That is to say, it still works with draw and push cuts, but it can also straight cut some and doesn’t have the mass to straight parry the way a Katana can, nessecitating sliding parries and misdirects. Something that fits very well with how Blade Forms work in Randland.)
Sorry, blades are a hobby of mine and I tend to zero in on such discussions. :)
@35 KakitaOCU
Don’t hold back, we can (and want to) take it…
Actually, Trollocs DO speak again, though not individually singled out. Later on they are crying out “ISAM” as they go into battle, and I think they have a few more general warcries in the series.
But yeah, no more erudite ruminations from a named trolloc from here on out.
birgit – My parents’ house, built in the early 40s, had locks on both front and back doors (though none on the wood chute). We never bothered to lock them until sometime in the 80s when someone (known to the family) came in and stole a bunch of stuff because “they needed it more…” It was a sad loss of trust.
Yup, we had locks on our door in Milwaukee and never lo med them until the 90s. We’d lock up if going out of town, though.
Did any of the threads about Kari al’Thor ever go anywhere in the series?
I remember fevered discussions about her on rasfwr-j (she was a wilder/Aes Sedai/Darkfriend/Aiel/etc), but I can’t really remember any of those red herrings being followed up on.
It almost seems like Kari was just a placeholder, a mother figure (conveniently dead) in Rand’s backstory so that it made sense that no one in the Two Rivers had asked awkward questions about where he came from, which seems like a bit of a waste.
What would really have changed in the books, if Kari never existed, and Tam had just made her up as part of his backstory when he arrived in the Two Rivers? (Yeah, there is the vision Rand gets sent of her being tortured, but that seems like a hole that could have been easily filled, perhaps even better, by someone else.)
My grandparents kept chickens in Takoma Park MD just outside the DC line up until just before or during WW II. I thought I had memories of chickens being prepared (killed) for dinner but those must have been stories from my grandparents/parents as I was born in 1941 (technically in DC although my parents (and I) lived in Takoma Park). My memory being what it is these days, I doubt that I can actually remember anything from that early in my childhood ;).
I remember chasing down the chickens for dinner, and my grandpa doing the hatchet thing, and I am way younger than those guys ^there. :D
My mom (late-50s) has vivid childhood memories of plucking freshly killed chickens, getting well water, and making a bed with actual feathers. Yes, most were from her great-grandmother’s house in rural Kansas, but it was a way of life.
Husband’s family owns a heritage farm in Texas, owned and operated by the same family for 100+ years. They all have stories to tell of growing up or visiting the farm for a stay. Even with electricity some of those chores don’t change much.
@33: They only had one horse, Bela. They had several cows. And there has always been a different relationship between farmer and any animal where (s)he might kill it’s young to eat. Want to be less personal. Farmer is much less likely to eat a horse’s young. Sell it, yes.
@40: We don’t learn much from her. But she did live in the Two Rivers area for a 5-10 year before dying. Rand has memories of her. Other people know her. We just don’t hear about her.
“Light, who am I?”
-end chapter 6
I’m sure it’s been commented on before but this line jumps out at me. It’s just a tiny bit that’s easily explained by the reason he’s having these thoughts yet at the same time it could be looked at as an early foreshadowing of Rand’s internal identity struggle with LTT.
Also, what a great post @35 KakitaOCU. It presents a depth to the writings that I’ll never be able to fully pick up on by myself.
@44 Bayou.
There’s actually a lot of cross-overs and tweaks placed on what had to be purpose in the weapons seen in the series. To give a few more examples.
Ashandarei: The weapon’s description and use links to another Japanese weapon, the Naginata. That said, it appears to lack a tsuba or quillions of any sort. Further at times Mat has been able to successfully hook with it (And several art depictions show straight angle projection below the blade that would allow deliberate hooks). The weapon ends up largely as a Russian Sovnya. But also has hints of the Voulge of Europe if the depictions with square edges or back hooks are correct.
The Saldaen Cavalry swords are also an interesting thing. In history most cavalry blades are curved gently backwards. This helps prevent them from getting caught in a charge or pass and to more easily cut and pull free as you ride by. But the Saldaen blades are described in a way (And the Jordan approve replica also shows) that they curve forward, not quite so much as a kukri, but definately in a way that helps ensure the point is forward even if the hand isn’t twisted for a thrust. The weapon ends up reminding me less of a cavalry sword and more a shotel or kopesh, meant to hook an opponents weapons or shield or neck. This actually raises the skill level of Saldaen cavalry quite a bit as being able to reliably do such to a point that the weapon form stays like that is amazing.
The weapons and then the tactics that go with it are truly one of the greatest losses to having Sanderson finish the work (Note, I loved his efforts and have absolutely no issue with what he did). Jordan very clearly spent a LOT of time knowing exactly what these things did, why they did them and how that impacted war.
32. Wetlandernw
Drat! There goes the last of my loony theories! :)
Sorry to all – out of town (again) on posting day. Alas and alack.
Not much to say. As all know, I was really hoping for additional Kari dirt in the last few books but we got nothing. (Le sigh…). I expected her to be a merchant’s daughter with ties to the Trakands (hence, Morgase’s knowledge of Two Rivers speech but without making the connection between Rand and Tam) but …we got nothing. Having her be a wilder might have helped give Tam his very informed viewpoint on some of the caveats associated with relying on Aes Sedai but…still nothing.
I chopped wood as a kid for the wood burning stoves we used out of necessity during the 70s energy crisis. I also walked uphill going both to and from school and ate gravel for breakfast. Just a lucky b, that’s all.
Jonathan @46 – Thhbbbt!
As for all the lingering questions about Tam’s sword and Kari’s background, I’m looking for further info in the upcoming Companion. It’s our only hope.
@48 – Wet, are you Princess Leia now? Seeking help from Obi-Wan Companion.
Heh. Well, that’s what the survey said… ;)
Leigh, the reread is great thanks! Loving me some Two Rivers history!
KakitaOCU @several
Thanks for the weapons lesson.
Braid_Tug @43
It’s not a big deal (because the rest of your point is still valid), but the copy I’m reading (HC, 5th printing) does say “…their cow” and “The cow…”. Multiple sheep and chickens, yes, but only one horse and, it seems, one cow.
And I vaguely recall my parents starting dinner with live chickens in the 1950s.
ETA
The paragraph-spacing gremlin is back.
Tessuna @9: Sure they do: “ISAM!”
Edit: I just re-read the original re-read post and possibly, this is the only time we hear/read a line in the Trolloc language… (unless you count the name Isam as Trolloc too)
Living like Tam and Rand is definitely not that historical. I believe it wasn’t until the Second Industrial Revolution was in full swing that urbanization started and a more ‘modern’ lifestyle (i.e. technology, machinery etc) became commonplace, also in rural areas. So we’re talking early 20th century, and in many places a lot later!
@53 Bouke
Yep, in 2002 German public televison did a program with a family spending fall and winter on a farm in the Black Forest, living like they would have in 1902. Clothes, work, tools, everything was authentic. Excepting minor improvements (e.g. quality of the clothes, soap, availability of matches) they might as well have been living in the dark ages. They had virtually no technology above “hand drawn wooden cart” level.
Things started going south pretty much immediately and never stopped. By the end they had lost their potato harvest and the hay they would have needed to get their livestock through the winter, spent most of their money for helpers for their emergency harvest (which proved futile, see above), couldn’t use/sell any dairy products because their only dairy cow got an infection, they had to “sell” a cow and their only pig, most of their provisions for the winter spoilt, the father got a hernia from the hard work, the mother got a bladder infection from the cold and lack of undergarments, one of their daughters got an inflamed tendon, they literally walked their feet bloody on the way into the next village, and their son would have died of sepsis if they hadn’t called in a modern doctor.
Summary: Had it been real, they would have lost all their money and consequently the farm, barely would have made it through the winter at all and one of their three children would have died.
And remember, at the time of the program that was only 100 years ago. Or even 70 years ago, as things hadn’t changed much even in the 1930s in the rural areas of Germany. My grandmother (who was born in 1929) still grew up very much the same way.
Thinking about the change in technology and living conditions she witnessed in her lifetime makes my brain go ‘TILT’…
@54 just wow. When the next breaking comes we are all screwed
@55 -//-
Well, the being screwed is pretty much part of the deal anyway…
Isn’t this Age going to end in a zombie apocalypse, rather than a Breaking? Either that, or an alien invasion. That’s what TV tells me, anyway.
Breaking, zombies, aliens…same difference.
Randalator @54 – I’ve seen a similar program here, with 3-4 families “homesteading” not far from each other… with varying results. Some did okay-ish (though they’d not likely have been in good shape if they’d stayed the winter), and some failed miserably. Some of it depended on their background (not too surprisingly, the family from Tennessee adjusted better than the family from Los Angeles!) but a lot of it depended on their attitude as well.
The thing that makes most people fail so badly, though, is the transition from a modern lifestyle to one in which they have no training, no experience, and generally not even the kind of common figure-out-h0w-to-make-it-work sense of a hundred years ago. The dad probably wouldn’t have got a hernia from the work if he’d grown into it from childhood, etc. Still, there’s no denying it was a hard life; death, disease, and failed crops were a grim reality. A family alone might not make it – but in context, families were rarely completely alone.
Even Tam and Rand, living out in the Westwood several hours’ walk from the village, weren’t really alone. Any one of those families who were attacked by the Trollocs might have been wiped out – either directly, or by the damage done to their livelihood – if they’d truly been alone. You survive as part of a community. Two Rivers folk, just like those IRL 100+ years ago, took care of the members of their community who had a hard year; no one goes hungry unless everyone is going hungry.
KakitaOCU @45
Saldaean swords are described as serpentine, which I’ve always understood to mean they wove forward and back like like a snake would curve left and right. Sort of like a Kris sword.
Leigh,
Just wanted to say, I completely agree and couldn’t have said it better. This is what the classic fantasy story, properly excecuted, is all about. I’ve always thought that people complaining about this early part of the book and the similarities to Tolkien are like people complaining about getting wet when they go swimming.
J.Dauro@5, I slightly disagree with you here that this ties into a more knowledgable Tam in the the tacked on ‘Ravens’ prologue. There is no doubt that Tam is far more knowledgable about the wide world than other TR folk, but Tam reveals knowledge here that he would likely have known, being a high ranking officer in Aiel War and perticipated in those events, not things about events that happened thousands of years ago that only a scholar would know about.
@60, AlreadyMad
I have seen that interpretation, but I dismissed it for two reasons.
#1: Flamber/Kris style curves serve no real purpose save to be somewhat intimidating and nasty looking. The Border Landers have always seemed very straightforward and practical when it comes to their weaponry, it seemed unlikely that a Borderland nation would adopt a method of blade crafting that takes more time and effort for no actual gain.
#2: At one point there was a Jordan approved series of weapons. Right now you can only find the Heron blade but there used to be Perrin’s Axe, Fain’s Dagger, a Shienaran bastard sword and a saldaen cavalry sword. Said sword had a gentle forward curve, similar to a kukri but smoother and gradual (Almost like a reverse bladed sabre/scimitar)
KakitaOCU @62
A forward curved sword seems counter-intuitive. The reason almost all swords popularized by cavalry(sabre, scimitar, katana) are curved is that it’s easier to draw them from a seated position, as in astride a saddle, without having to let go of the reins. The specialization for slashing also allows them to maintain forward momentum while minimizing the chances of snagging like a stabbing weapon would.
A forward-curved sword would seem to run counter to this reasoning. The forward point would forever snag whenever they slash at opponents, adding a level of difficulty to the cavalryman and sapping his strength. It’s just not ergonomically sound. Unless you’re returning it to its scabbard.
Unfortunately I never saw the Jordan approved weapon, and a google search doesn’t turn an image up. What does turn up is a one-handed flamberge that another fan thinks is the correct one. Not that a Kris style curve would be easier to use, but it’s no more counter-intuitive than a straight blade.
I wonder what Jordan was thinking and why he didn’t just go with centuries of cavalry thinking and go with a regular curved blade…. Crazy Saldaeans and their crazy swords….
@63, Already Mad.
I’d actually agree with you. I find the weapon works based on the usefulness of hooking by a well trained blade combined with the exagerated over the top skill we’re told the Saldaen Light Calvary possess.
For the record, the below link shows the weapons Jordan checked off on (Only the Heron is still available from what I can see).
It shows an Aiel Spear, a Heron Mark blade, a Seanchan sword, a Saldaen Sword, Fain’s dagger and Perrin’s axe.
Some didn’t end up the way I would have pictured. the Aiel Spear is about right, as is the Heron, the Seanchan blade seems a bit less Asian than I would have expected of it. Also, Perrin’s axe having that hook at the bottom doesn’t fit with my mental image, though it does provide a series of useful options for the axe.
I have to agree, Leigh…Chapter 5 was a wonderful contrast indeed between the domesticity and the violence that followed. But I think what struck me even more–and still does to this day, despite the fact that Trollocs are no longer as threatening as they were the first time around–is how truly real the whole chapter feels. The part on the farm at the start doesn’t just show us what is in danger, what is at stake if evil wins, but I felt like I was really there. Maybe some of it comes from being of a somewhat rural background myself (though I did not grow up on a farm and thus couldn’t handle myself any better than you could), but I can feel so much from this scene…the coziness of the fire and the ordinary, reassuring nature of the repetitive tasks, the frisson of excitement and impending dread as Tam reveals the sword to Rand (thus hinting at how bad things must truly be, if he is willing to bring out such a thing he says has no place in the Two Rivers), the illusion of safety inside the warm house belied by the creepy chill of what lies out there in the night…
(That last bit is also augmented by the fact that not only Rand knows of the black rider and is worried about him, but Tam does too. I loved how at the end of the previous chapter Tam revealed he heard about the rider from Jon Thane and Samel Crawe, and so now he believes Rand–it was great to have an adult believe and take it seriously, but it makes the scene here in the house have more weight when it isn’t just Rand who’s uneasy.)
I also believe, if memory serves me correctly, that I first read TEotW when it was late fall or early winter–so my own house was warm and toasty while surrounded by a cold, dark night. It made it much easier to know how it felt in the al’Thor home, and to imagine the same horrific attack happening to me. In other words, the whole scene is realistic and disturbing on many levels.
I didn’t realize the heron-marked sword was a katana (I somehow missed the detail about the curve in the blade) but it makes sense in a way. From what we can tell most Power-wrought blades were made in the Age of Legends–and at least some of them from before the War of Power, when they were just used for sportsman games. That sort of honorable, complex, carefully choreographed and stylized dueling, is reminiscent of feudal Japan in a number of ways, so it is believable their weapons would have a similar design.
Tam’s commentary on what swords are good for or meant for is very interesting, considering how it dovetails not only with why the Da’shain Aiel initially refused to use swords even when they were abandoning the Way of the Leaf, but with Perrin’s thoughts about how the axe can be used to create or kill, but the hammer can only be used to create. (Of course that isn’t true, but in the context of how a blacksmith would use it, it works.)
The latter parallel is important because of how Perrin originally identified with the Way of the Leaf, or at least wished he could follow it, and how being a blacksmith gives him special favor in the eyes of the Aiel, while the former point almost implies that, like so much else he knows which no one else in the Two Rivers does, Tam knows how Aiel feel about swords. It all adds an intriguing resonance between characters and cultures that underscores the philosophical and symbolic points Jordan was making.
Narg and his ability to talk…I’m not sure why Jordan never revisited it later in the series, but I think the reason he used it here was to suggest how disturbing Trollocs are–that they look like animals, act like brutes, but can talk like people. It may also have been meant as foreshadowing for what we later learn, that Trollocs come from human stock and were made by Aginor combining them with animals. Perhaps, once having established they could talk, think (to some degree), and had a culture of sorts, it would make their later appearances more disturbing…that even though we never saw them talk again, we would always know in the backs of our heads that they could, and it would make them even more upsetting because of it.
Nice reference to Rand having sensed Shadowspawn; I hadn’t caught that one. As for the thing about tropes and cliches, what makes them work is, as Leigh says, not whether they are new or old, but if they are used in new ways. It’s not their presence, it’s how they are used, how well they are executed. And in this case even thought the reader doesn’t know yet why Rand has this mysterious unknown origin or what it is (unless they were genre savvy enough to figure out he was not only the main hero but also Lews Therin reborn, or they were paying attention to foreshadowing like him being compared to an Aielman), it’s the fact that he is which compels us to read on. We not only want to see him escape evil, learn more of the world, and do whatever it is a hero will do in this setting, we want to find out why he is more than what he seems, what exactly he really is, and what that will mean for his life and the story. And I have to say, I found the answers to those questions worth the wait, intriguing and different even while still familiar, and the source of a great story. Obviously I wasn’t the only one!
LOL…I had forgotten that foreshadowing in Rand’s thoughts of whom he might meet. That also reminds me (and I look forward to approaching the matter again when we get to the Eye) how Jordan included so many elements in this first book which seemed to fall by the wayside and be forgotten. Some did finally come back, particularly in the three books Sanderson wrote, but one which never returned was the Green Man. Now obviously the name comes from Celtic/pagan roots (no pun intended), and what he actually turns out to be is important to the story in how it connects to the Aiel’s past and the Song but beyond that no further relevance applies to him. I wonder why Jordan brought him in here, and then never had anything about him again, other than when we learn his name and a bit of his origin in Rand’s ancestor memories…
@3 Herb1002: Considering how central the Aiel were, not just to Rand’s story but Lews Therin’s and the whole story, I bet he did have it worked out already.
@5 J. Dauro: Good point. Even if the new prologue is clunky and out-of-place, and makes you wonder why the kids didn’t remember what they were told later, it does fit Tam’s characterization and background as shown elsewhere.
@9 Tessuna: Yes. I touched on this in describing how the scene at the house felt to me, but I agree that the Westwood chapter did seem much, much longer than it was, and that the fear and worry and tiredness of Rand as he struggled to reach town and escape the Shadowspawn was very palpable. Just another masterful way Jordan had of making us feel we were really there, that even as he was echoing Tolkien he was making his world have a reality and depth Middle Earth didn’t in some ways.
@13 mutantalbinocrocodile: *chuckles* Good point. Both in making sure we don’t limit ourselves only to Campbell’s paradigm (I am not as…critical of him as you are, but I do agree his theories and insights are not the only way to read literature, heroic or otherwise), and in how Jordan broke free of it in a rather unexpected twist at the end of TDR. It’s no accident that it’s the next book most WOT fans cite as the one that truly expanded the world and also showed the story was going to be more different and complex than we could ever have imagined. At the same time, I think Leigh is right that the Hero’s Journey returned later in the series (for Rand obviously, but also Perrin and to some degrees Mat, Egwene, and Nynaeve–each in different ways, and with the aspects divided up between them). They just came back to reinforce how the Campbellian pattern isn’t a neat, easily manifesting story structure–especially not in a world where by definition everything is woven in a complex, sometimes unexpected, often unique Pattern.
@19 alreadymad: That’s pretty much what I concluded to, albeit without really sitting down to spell it out in clear terms. I don’t know if they were the province only of Lews Therin’s group (him, Barid Bel, and Tel Janin as well as Dural Laddam), I suspect it was more an overall officer corps as you say. Though I think they also existed before the war, where they were ornamental and ceremonial when used for the purpose of harmless sports dueling, only to be repurposed along with swordwork itself for war. Considering the high value given to such blades, I think it is also likely that whoever it belonged to in the Age of Legends, in modern times it was also a noble’s before Tam won it.
@21 Wetlander: Wow…well that answers that, doesn’t it? I rather thought it came from Illian and not Andor or someone he fought during the Aiel War, but the king himself? This would have been Mattin Stepaneos, since he’s the one who fought in the Whitecloak War with Niall, who was also present in the Aiel War, and I see that’s confirmed at a book signing. I wonder if that’s why Jordan brought Mattin back for us to meet in KoD?
@23 neverspeakaword: True, but if I remember correctly he modeled the fire sword after Tam’s, so it would still look like a katana. Just…made of fire, which I assume it wasn’t on the e-book cover. :P
@24 neverspeakaword: I believe Jordan mentioned that the modern tongue is descended from the Old Tongue to the point that it wouldn’t take a master of the Old Tongue long to learn it. Then again, maybe some of the Forsaken were linguistic geniuses; I imagine a philosopher like Ishamael would be, for certain. Or you could imagine a hilarious infodump session after everyone got out of the Bore, where Ishamael (in between and even during bouts of megalomania) brought them up to speed on history and gave them a crash course in the new language.
@33 birgit: 1) Because at one time they used to; the need for it was lost as the Two Rivers became so peaceful and trusting, but the habit was still there to make them. Or maybe they were afraid of Taren Ferry men coming by. 2) Because farmers identify with their horses that they ride and use to go to market and back, but not the cows that just give them milk or end up killed for the meat.
@40 Brian Gibbons: It is odd how she disappears from the narrative. I don’t even recall her name being mentioned again, except possibly when Rand learns about Tigraine in LOC (and of course when he meets the Aiel in TSR). Tam doesn’t even mention her again.
@44 Bayoubilly: Oooo, good point. Jordan was great at such long set-ups for foreshadowing.
@65: Yeah, I have trouble thinking of references to Trolloc speech after TGH. In ToM, that soldier’s thoughts went something like “intelligence and personality varied widely among Trollocs; some could even speak intelligeably” (paraphrasing without the book) as if that were unusual, when TEoTW and TGH provided clear evidence to the contrary. Sigh.
@66: Hahahahaha, I would’ve loved to read an Ishamael history-and-language infodump. I love nearly all interactions between the Forsaken.
Something I just remembered.
When Rand talks to his father about the rider, Tam takes the question seriously, and talks to the mayor, who takes some reasonable precautions.
I remember being mildly surprised when I read that. It may have been the realization that this isn’t going to be one of those young-adult books (I was 15 when I read it) in which the children are constantly at odds with the grown-ups, a la Secret Seven or Philosopher’s Stone (an anachronism, I know).
Funny because of our discussion.
My grandpa is raising rabbits and now turkeys, but only a few for sale at a time. Half the rabbits are sold as pets; half for dinner.
He “promised” (threatened) to give me a live turkey next year in time for Thanksgiving dinner. Just no… I don’t want to do that. I like my birds frozen from the store, thanks.
@mutant et. al: I want to defend Campbell. I don’t know how many have read his masterwork, THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, but it is important to do so. That is his magnus opus, where he definitively lays out his entire framework. He doesn’t claim that every variant occurs in every story, only that the framework is common. Some stories contain only “fragments” of the entire picture, with the rest merely implied – but (as Campbell says), the omission will usually be significant.
And, of course, there may be stories-within-stories: nested cycles of separation-initiation-return, which is his basic three-part structure. Each one of the three may take any one of many forms, of course.
Obviously, there is nothing “neat” or “clean” about something is complex as mythology/literature! But I consider Campbell’s thought to be a significant breakthrough. He is not perfect, but he provides a framework to BEGIN analysis on almost any story.
I compare Campbell with thinkers like Newton, or Darwin, or Freud. These individuals created theories that have since been refined and/or replaced, but nevertheless are to be credited with significantly advancing our understanding. I think Campbell has done this for mythology.
Its also important to remember that the Cambellian monomyth doesn’t have to be an exterior/plot thing. It could be what’s happening inside the character as well. In fact, in modern “myths” that’s frequently whats occuring.
@71: Yes. Campbell says clearly that, even when the story describes a traditional physical/heroic/adventure/journey, the PURPOSE of myth is to motivate an “inner” transformation in the reader/hearer. That is what myth does, when it works. Of course, he also claims that there is no working mythology today: to be effective there has to be an entire network of interconnected (though not necessarily logically consistent) stories which people take seriously.
In modern times, then, it is not too surprising that writers attempt to go directly to the point and create stories wherein the transformation described is an inner one. Or maybe some combination: the Thomas Covenant saga is a pretty interesting attempt to combine the two, I think.
I began reading Wheel of Time in high school, which is also when I had first started getting into Campbell’s theories..so it’s been fun to relive some of that here. Thanks for the post :)
Ah, Narg – I had a friend who wrote Narg fan fiction, lol :)
I bet Narg wrote Fan Fiction, too.
“…And then Narg kill Dragon Reborn. Narg happy. Great Lord also happy. Great Lord say to Narg: “YOU GOOD TROLLOC! YOU SMART! YOU SAVE GREAT LORD AND ALL FOLLOWERS! YOU CAN HAVE ANY TROLLOC FEMALE YOU WANT! AND TROLLOC PENTHOUSE AT SHAYOL GHUL! ALL HAIL NARG!”
And then Great Lord decide to retire and make Narg Nae’blis. And Narg rule world with iron hoof and everyone worship Narg.
The End!”
@74 – Nah, I’d bet fan fiction writing Narg wants to end up with Leane, like everyone else….
Mac – The Green Man is mentioned again, albeit indirectly, in the Book 4 flashback chapters. Could even be somewhere else too??? Hmmm.
Yes, Kari dropped from the story unexpectedly, another casualty of failure to address Tam backstory in any detail. I still think there was more planned there, re Tam, Kari, other Camelyners, Morgase, Marcolin (the Ilian Companion Captain who expressed mixed feelings about serving Rand, the son of Tam, his former captain), that didn’t make it into the text.
Yeah, the one thing I really wish RJ had gotten a chance to work on was the Tam prequel.
OMG, the Narg fan fiction is making me laugh out loud.
The craziest part of this chapter for me was that Rand waited until he could no longer hear the Trollacs marching by, and was just about to get up and continue his way to Emonds Field, when the Fade came galloping back the way it had come, the horse’s hooves making absolutely no sound. That scared the shit out of me!
It’s so amazing to me now that I’ve reread the Reread in its entirety twice and starting in on the Redux, that I’m probably one of the few people out there for whom WOT was my very first endeavor at reading a fantasy series (besides LOTR). My previous tastes ran to SciFi, which I found a lot easier to understand in terms of world building etc. I actually was shocked when the Trollocs burst into their cabin, didn’t see that coming at all as I was not familiar with all the tropes associated with the genre. I’m going to enjoy going through the Redux (again) and eventually catching up with everyone in real time!